Subject: Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht

From: Joe Touch <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 14:03:59 -0700

Theodore Tso wrote:
...
> This was my experience as well (I travel a lot, to many countries in
> Europe and Asia, and have never had a problem until I travelled to the
> Netherlands last year) --- except my ATM card didn't work, either. When
> I talked to my bank, they told me it was because of fraud problems in
> that country specifically; I would have needed to warn them at least a
> few days in advance i was planning on visiting the Netherlands for them
> to put my card on a special authorization list.

Many banks have a "not outside the country of origin except with
explicit permission" rule. My bank started this about 7 years ago. It's
not country-specific.

I encourage those intending to use their ATM cards overseas to similarly
inform their bank in advance.

Joe

---

From: Joe Touch <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 14:07:15 -0700

Jari Arkko wrote:
> Phillip,
> 
>> This is the main change from the US. In the US it is entirely
>> practical to carry only plastic and no cash at all.
> 
> This is mostly right, but maybe not universally true. Imagine my
> surprise when I walked to a cab at LAX and asked to be taken to the
> Anaheim hotel. First, I had apparently not read enough 77attendees list
> to realize that its a LONG way from the airport. Second, the cab refused
> to take credit cards.

You should have asked when you got in; many cabs in the US (in most
cities I've traveled to, and all the ones I've used at LAX where I
reside) do take credit cards.

If you find one that doesn't, get out and get another cab (and, at the
airport, inform the cab attendant).

FYI.

Joe

---

From: Jari Arkko <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 11:11:13 +0300

Joe,

> reside) do take credit cards.

The cab had a sign that said they take credit cards. Just that in the 
end, that didn't turn out to be a true advertisement. In any case, my 
point was not my specific travel problems. The point was that no matter 
where you are going some cash is probably recommended. I certainly 
recommend that for EU and Maastricht as well. You may survive without, 
but you are definitely taking a risk with bad cabs, 
foreign-credit-cards-not-accepted-ticket-machines, and the like.

Jari

---

From: Joe Touch <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 08:58:10 -0700

Hi, Jari,

Individual shop owners (and cab drivers) can always do what they want
(anywhere), even when the company they work for accepts cards.

As I noted, you can ask before you get into the cab.

Though I agree with your recommendation that backup cash is always
useful -- in any city.

Joe

---

From: "Glen Zorn" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 06:50:38 +0700

> As I noted, you can ask before you get into the cab.

More than once, I _have_ asked the driver specifically if he accepts credit
cards (the advertised policy notwithstanding) only to have him refuse it
upon arrival...

> Though I agree with your recommendation that backup cash is always

Indeed.  
> > point was not my specific travel problems. The point was that no
> > matter where you are going some cash is probably recommended. I
> > certainly recommend that for EU and Maastricht as well. You may
> > survive without, but you are definitely taking a risk with bad cabs,

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 18:43:48 +0200

> cards (the advertised policy notwithstanding) only to have him refuse it

Curious way to engage in commerce. Where was this?

BTW:

I'm typing this from Schiphol airport. I just went to the train ticket counter, and they have big signs posted everywhere that they only accept PIN-enabled credit cards. And cash, of course. Note that on http://www.ietf78.nl/ it says that the railway ticket machines accept cash, but that's only barely true: only some of them do, and then only in the form of coins.

---

From: "Glen Zorn" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 07:29:53 +0700

> Curious way to engage in commerce. Where was this?

Several places, all in the US; most recently, Dallas.

...

---

From: "Dan Harkins" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 18:31:14 -0700 (PDT)

I have had cab drivers in the US try to force me to pay cash
in similar situations. Saying they don't accept credit cards and
then, when I say that's all I have, telling me how much longer
it will take to get me out of their cab if I really want to use
a credit card. In these cases I just kept insisting on the card
and eventually (like, within a minute) all was settled the way I
wanted it to be settled: with the credit card.

  It may seem anachronistic to some, but the rule of law does
apply in the US today and asking to have a police officer settle
the dispute is a good way of getting quick resolution. If all
else fails maybe taking a picture or two (driver and taxi permit)
with a camera phone might tend to elicit a change of attitude.

  Dan.

On Sun, May 9, 2010 5:29 pm, Glen Zorn wrote:
> _______________________________________________
> Ietf mailing list
> [email-masked]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
>

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 23:01:23 -0400

> with a camera phone might tend to elicit a change of attitude.

I talked to a cab driver in Boston, and he's not very happy with
credit cards, because he was forced to use a new system for credit
cards, and it takes what he considered an unfairly large percentage
when customers pay by credit cards.  After learning that, I've
generally tried to pay cash when I can, and if I really have to pay by
credit card, I'll give a bigger tip as compensation.

					- Ted

---

From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 11:05:52 +0200

On 10 mei 2010, at 5:01, [email-masked] wrote:

> when customers pay by credit cards.

And that's why credit cards are so evil. I understand there are often provisions that sellers can't charge a premium for credit card payments to make up for the commission so in places where creditcards are common EVERYONE pays more because of credit card commissions.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:06:48 -0400

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 11:05:52AM +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
> And that's why credit cards are so evil. I understand there are
> often provisions that sellers can't charge a premium for credit card
> payments to make up for the commission so in places where
> creditcards are common EVERYONE pays more because of credit card
> commissions.

It's worse than the standard "credit card banks charge a percentage".
Apparently the service that provides the TV screen with GPS monitoring
(and which gets revenue from the advertising shown on said TV screen)
is charging substantially more (2x to 3x) than what the percentage
would be if the Taxi cab driver were to use his own bank's credit card
clearing service; but the way the system is set up, he has to use the
one which is installed in his cab.

Anyway, Taxi cabs are a regulated monopoly, so the State gets to set
the rules, but do have some understanding if the taxi cab drivers
growl a bit before accepting the credit card.  (This is at least in
Boston; YMMV in different cities.)

						- Ted

---

From: Steven Bellovin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:12:25 -0400

> And that's why credit cards are so evil. I understand there are often provisions that sellers can't charge a premium for credit card payments to make up for the commission so in places where credit…

On the other hand, according to the NY Times taxi drivers in New York have found that accepting credit cards (required by law in the city) has helped their business and their bottom line: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/08/nyregion/08taxi.html

		--Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb

---

From: Donald Eastlake <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 09:57:51 -0400

> And that's why credit cards are so evil. I understand there are often provisions that sellers can't charge a premium for credit card payments to make up for the commission so in places where credit…

While there might be special rules for taxis and while in the USA most
credit card merchant agreements prohibit adding a surcharge for using
a credit card, they do not prohibit giving a discount for cash.

Donald

---

From: Nathaniel Borenstein <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 10:15:46 -0400

I think it's really all about the credit card fees.  Cab drivers, at least in the US, are often on a small enough margin, with high fixed costs, that the few percent taken by the card companies can be the difference between a worthwhile and a wasted fare.  Next time a cabbie doesn't want your card, offer him 10% more and watch him change his tune.

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 10:31:58 -0400

On May 10, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Nathaniel Borenstein wrote:

> I think it's really all about the credit card fees.  Cab drivers, at  
> least in the US, are often on a small enough margin, with high fixed  
> costs, that the few percent taken by the card companies can be the  
> difference between a worthwhile and a wasted fare.  Next time a  
> cabbie doesn't want your card, offer him 10% more and watch him  
> change his tune.
>

There is also a big difference in my experience between cabs that have  
wireless card readers / verifies (as do the Dulles Airport - IAD -  
taxis here in DC) and those that run credit cards through a paper  
imprinter. I have, for example, never gotten any push back in paying  
for a Dulles cab by card since they got the readers. The taxis without  
a reader tend to resist using a card.

The last IETF in Minneapolis I took a cab to the airport, had no cash  
and paid by credit card with a paper imprint. The charge did not  
appear until about 6 months later, so someone (the taxi driver or at  
least his company) effectively floated my ride for 6 months. I can  
understand them pushing back if it means a delay in their income.

Regards
Marshall

---

From: David Morris <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:31:01 -0700 (PDT)

On Mon, 10 May 2010, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:

> And that's why credit cards are so evil. I understand there are often
> provisions that sellers can't charge a premium for credit card payments
> to make up for the commission so in places where creditcards are common
> EVERYONE pays more because of credit card commissions.

Worth noting in this context ... in many/most/all US cities, cab fares are
regulated ... that would tend to not provide the cab driver/company with
the ability to compensate for the CC fee with higher rates and might make
them less happy about taking cards.

Also, in one case where I used a card, the transaction was handled over
the cab's radio to the dispatcher ... not something that made me happy.

---

From: Bob Braden <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:54:52 -0700

Is there no bottom to this particular rat hole?  Enough, already!

Bob Braden

---

From: Steven Bellovin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 12:44:20 -0400

> Is there no bottom to this particular rat hole?  Enough, already!
We first have to discuss if the credit cards have to be in ASCII vs. HTML or PDF.

---

From: Ben Campbell <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 17:12:46 -0500

I traveled through Schipol last January. My Visa debit card (with PIN) worked at the human counter with the "PIN Cards Only" sign. It was later refused at a different station, but I think that was a matter of an untrained attendant more than a technology failure. (He expected a chip.)

---

From: Nathaniel Borenstein <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 08:43:46 -0400

> We first have to discuss if the credit cards have to be in ASCII vs. HTML or PDF.

There you have it, folks:  clear evidence of the IETF's irrational and unfair bias against EBCDIC.

---

From: Julian Reschke <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 15:50:13 +0200

> We first have to discuss if the credit cards have to be in ASCII vs. HTML or PDF.

Even cab drivers nowadays know that the character encoding (ASCII vs 
UTF-8 vs EBCDIC) and the file format (text/plain, application/xhtml+xml, 
...) are orthogonal issues...

Best regards, Julian

---

From: Behcet Sarikaya <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 08:03:37 -0700 (PDT)

Hi,
  I noticed that IETF 78 Hotel that I made reservation already charged my credit card for the whole duration of my stay.

  Should I be thankful because euro is low these days or complain about it?

Thx.

Behcet

---

From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:18:18 -0400

On May 18, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:

> Hi,
>   I noticed that IETF 78 Hotel that I made reservation already  
> charged my credit card for the whole duration of my stay.
>

Charged, or "authorized" ? (In the authorized case, the charge will  
generally show up as "pending".)

Frequently authorization is ~ 150% of the nominal room charge, but  
doing it in advance seems quite excessive.

Marshall

---

From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 13:11:11 -0400

Its all about money, but not necessarily the fees.

The cabs in most parts of the US are run through a licensed monopoly
scheme which is frequently corrupt. In NYC the guy who drives the cab
gets a pittance while the medallions sell for huge sums. Raising taxi
fares does not improve the pay of the drivers, the surplus all goes to
the controllers of the monopoly.

Mandating credit card acceptance should in theory merely reduce the
amount the rent that the medallion owners can extract from the drivers
and thus not affect the proportion of the fares the drivers receive.
The reason the drivers do not like them is that they make their
earnings more transparent to the medallion owners and thus enable them
to maximize their rent extraction.

It may not appear to be IETF related, but there are many, many
circumstances where deployment of a security protocol will be blocked
because similar effects are at work under the covers.

-- 
Website: http://hallambaker.com/

---

From: John C Klensin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 13:44:59 -0400

(subject line adjusted -- this has long ago ceased to be
Maastricht-specific in any way)

--On Tuesday, May 18, 2010 13:11 -0400 Phillip Hallam-Baker
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>...
> Mandating credit card acceptance should in theory merely
> reduce the amount the rent that the medallion owners can
> extract from the drivers and thus not affect the proportion of
> the fares the drivers receive. The reason the drivers do not
> like them is that they make their earnings more transparent to
> the medallion owners and thus enable them to maximize their
> rent extraction.

A closely-related reason the drivers don't like them is concern
that credit card charges leave a paper trail that can, in
principle, make it harder to distort income for taxation
purposes.

None of this makes the comments of Ted and others less true.
The equation is, as usual, a little more complicated than credit
card charges or perceived "float" alone.  There is no "the
reason", only a whole complex of reasons, some of which may be
more important to some drivers in some areas than others.

   john

---

From: Behcet Sarikaya <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 11:55:24 -0700 (PDT)

> generally show up as "pending".)

I saw it as a fixed charge in my credit card statement not as pending.

> Frequently authorization is ~ 150% of 
> the nominal room charge, but doing it in advance seems quite 
> excessive.

You mean one night's charge? In my case it was for the whole week.

I am hoping that Ray will do something.

Regards,

Behcet

---

From: Janet P Gunn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 15:54:14 -0400

Which hotel was it?

Two  of the hotels (NH Maastricht and Crowne Plaza Maastricht) show two 
sets of rates, a refundable rate and a non-refundable rate.  It says that 
if you choose the non-refundable rate your credit card will be charged 
immediately. 

Janet

[email-masked] wrote on 05/18/2010 02:55:24 PM:

> [image removed] 
> 
> Re: Advance travel info for IETF-78 Maastricht
> 
> Behcet Sarikaya 
> 
> to:
> 
> Marshall Eubanks
> 
> 05/18/2010 02:55 PM
> 
> Sent by:
> 
> [email-masked]
> 
> Cc:
> 
> IETF Discussion
> 
> Please respond to Behcet Sarikaya
> 
> > 
> > Hi,

---

From: Marcia Beaulieu <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 07:42:03 +1000

Dear Behcet,

Can you please check the confirmation you received when you made your reservation.  There were a number of rates available with different terms, when I contacted the MECC booking service and they indicated you booked the rate which is non-refundable.  This means you received a special low rate which is pre-paid and charged at the time you make your reservation.  This rate also means you cannot change or cancel your reservation.

If you need additional information, please let me know.

Thanks,
Marcia

---

From: Robert Moskowitz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 22:54:19 -0400

>    Should I be thankful because euro is low these days or complain about it?

Here I thought with a new thread that we might actually be getting some 
info on the flying situation into Europe with the let up of the volcanic 
ash....