Subject: Regarding call Chinese names

From: Hui Deng <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 08:04:36 +0800

Hello all

We submitted two drafts to help people here to correctly call chinese
people names:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-deng-call-chinese-names-00

   http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zcao-chinese-pronounce-00

Feel free to let us know if you have any other issues?

Best regards,

-Hui Deng

---

From: Ida <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 21:00:20 -0400

Sent from my iPad

On 2013-07-10, at 8:59 PM, Ida <[email-masked]> wrote:

> One comment:  I think most of the Chinese women don't change to our husband's last name. So,  my husband is not Mr Leung.  We love to keep our own last name.   
> 
> ...Ida
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On 2013-07-10, at 8:04 PM, Hui Deng <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
>> Hello all
>>  
>> We submitted two drafts to help people here to correctly call chinese people names:

---

From: S Moonesamy <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 17:55:24 -0700

Hi Deng Hui,
>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zcao-chinese-pronounce-00

I would like to thank you and your co-author on taking the initiative 
to write the drafts.  I don't know whether I am western or not. :-)

In Section 3 of draft-deng-call-chinese-names-00:

   'Two generic titles that have similar meanings to "Mr." and
    "Ms./Mrs." are "Xian1sheng1" and "Nv3Shi4".'

   "(1,2,3,4 in this section will be explained in next section)

There are digits in two words in the above.  I suggest making the 
comment about the numbers clearer by mentioning that the digits are 
intentional and they are used to denote the tone.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

---

From: Hector Santos <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 21:45:41 -0400

>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zcao-chinese-pronounce-00

Fantastic. Short and sweet!  Thanks for helping to make us all one.

--
HLS

---

From: "Cao,Zhen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 10:17:18 +0800

On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 8:55 AM, S Moonesamy <[email-masked]> wrote:
> I would like to thank you and your co-author on taking the initiative to
> write the drafts.  I don't know whether I am western or not. :-)

:)

> There are digits in two words in the above.  I suggest making the comment
> about the numbers clearer by mentioning that the digits are intentional and
> they are used to denote the tone.

Thanks for the comments, we will revise accordingly.
btw: tones are really difficult to handle, similar for us Chinese to
use the modal words and intonations in English.

---

From: "Will Liu (Shucheng)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 03:44:29 +0000

A typo in draft-deng-call-chinese-names-00: "Jiao4shao4" should be "Jiao4shou4".

Cheers,
Shucheng LIU (Will)

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Hui Deng
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 8:05 AM
To: IETF Discussion
Subject: Regarding call Chinese names

Hello all

Best regards,

-Hui Deng

---

From: "Zhongxin (Victor)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 09:50:00 +0000

BRAVO, techies not speaking Chinese would no longer mispronounce “Huawei” as the name of some U.S state.

________________________________
Victor Zhong Xin  钟 鑫
European Region,Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd.
[huawei-logo]

http://www.huawei.com
________________________________

From: [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Hui Deng
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 2:05 AM
To: IETF Discussion
Subject: Regarding call Chinese names

Hello all

Best regards,

-Hui Deng

---

From: Mikael Abrahamsson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 12:25:21 +0200 (CEST)

> “Huawei” as the name of some U.S state.

I have asked Huawei staff how it's pronounced and I think I get it fairly 
right. People who hasn't, might get confused because when I use that 
pronounciation it's not the prevelant pronounciation. About your example, 
there are plenty of places in the US with french origins, and in US 
english, these are pronounced differently than in french. What's correct? 
Perhaps if Huawei would call itself Whow-wei in latin characters more 
people would get it right, if this is a really sensitive issue.

Linux has similar issue, Linus Torvalds native language is swedish, but 
he's also a native finnish speaker:

<http://danielmiessler.com/blog/dont-ever-argue-again-about-the-pronunciation-of-linux>

How many english speakers pronounce Linux correctly? Linus' first name? In 
what language? Do native chinese get it right? Is it really worth spending 
time debating it? My name is pronounced differently in english and in 
swedish, just like Linus' name is. I don't get upset when people get it 
"wrong". Btw, it's pronounced Mii-ka-el in swedish (where the ii is a long 
version of the initial sound in "industry").

So while I read with interest the documents presented in the original post 
in this thread, I don't expect to understand and remember all of what's in 
them.

Are these documents intended to be published as informational RFCs (it 
says "intended status: informational")? Are we intending to have one for 
each 'major' language in the world? Where is the cutoff for 'major' status 
of a language?

Should the IETF really publish documents about human languages that 
doesn't really have anything to do with Internet Engineering?

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: [email-masked]

---

From: Tom McLoughlin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 12:05:01 +0100

I've always pronounced Huawei as Hawaii tbh.

On 11/07/2013 11:25, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> I have asked Huawei staff how it's pronounced and I think I get it
> fairly right. People who hasn't, might get confused because when I use
> that pronounciation it's not the prevelant pronounciation. About your
> example, there are plenty of places in the US with french origins, and
> in US english, these are pronounced differently than in french. What's
> correct? Perhaps if Huawei would call itself Whow-wei in latin
> characters more people would get it right, if this is a really
> sensitive issue.
>
> Linux has similar issue, Linus Torvalds native language is swedish,
> but he's also a native finnish speaker:
>
> How many english speakers pronounce Linux correctly? Linus' first
> name? In what language? Do native chinese get it right? Is it really
> worth spending time debating it? My name is pronounced differently in
> english and in swedish, just like Linus' name is. I don't get upset
> when people get it "wrong". Btw, it's pronounced Mii-ka-el in swedish
> (where the ii is a long version of the initial sound in "industry").
>
> So while I read with interest the documents presented in the original
> post in this thread, I don't expect to understand and remember all of
> what's in them.
>
> says "intended status: informational")? Are we intending to have one
> for each 'major' language in the world? Where is the cutoff for
> 'major' status of a language?
>

---

From: Aaron Yi DING <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 12:22:11 +0100

> I've always pronounced Huawei as Hawaii tbh.

Not a bad idea to get Huawei smartphones under that brand name, which 
sounds quite cute :)

Aaron

---

From: Hui Deng <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 19:57:42 +0800

Hi S. Moonesamy,

Thanks a lot, we will add that explaination you suggested in the next
version.

Best regards,

-Hui

2013/7/11 S Moonesamy <[email-masked]>

>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/**draft-deng-call-chinese-names-**00<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-deng-call-chinese-names-00>
>>
>>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/**draft-zcao-chinese-pronounce-**00<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zcao-chinese-pronounce-00>
>>
>
> In Section 3 of draft-deng-call-chinese-names-**00:
>

---

From: Hui Deng <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 19:58:39 +0800

Good catch, thansk a lot

-Hui

2013/7/11 Will Liu (Shucheng) <[email-masked]>

>  A typo in draft-deng-call-chinese-names-00: “Jiao4shao4” should be “
> Jiao4shou4”.****
>
> ** **
>
> Cheers,****
>
> Shucheng LIU (Will)****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] *On Behalf
> Of *Hui Deng
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 11, 2013 8:05 AM
> *To:* IETF Discussion
> *Subject:* Regarding call Chinese names****
>
> ** **
>
> Hello all****
>
>  ****
>
> people names:****
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-deng-call-chinese-names-00 ****
>
>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zcao-chinese-pronounce-00****
>
>  ****
>
> Feel free to let us know if you have any other issues?****
>
> Best regards,****
>
>  ****
>
> -Hui Deng****
>

---

From: Hui Deng <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 20:14:46 +0800

Hi Mikael,

I will change informational to no-purpose, not require IETF to publish it.
what we do is just want to help people who would like to follow it.

I personally feel that this is maybe one of not easier part for western
people to do in today IETF.  and chinese's names sound maybe more diffcult
than other eastern languages.

Best regards,

-Hui

2013/7/11 Mikael Abrahamsson <[email-masked]>

> <http://danielmiessler.com/**blog/dont-ever-argue-again-**
> about-the-pronunciation-of-**linux<http://danielmiessler.com/blog/dont-ever-argue-again-about-the-pronunciation-of-linux>
> >
>

---

From: Arturo Servin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 10:55:07 -0300

Great document, I really liked.

    Same as SM I would suggest change "western" for something else.

    And I would also suggest to move section 4 before explaining the
titles. I guess the reading would be much easier.

Regards,
as

---

From: Simon Perreault <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 15:58:10 +0200

>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zcao-chinese-pronounce-00

Very cool! Thanks for writing this!

I have a question: I think I've seen Chinese names written in both
orders. That is, sometimes "Hui Deng" will be written "Deng Hui". Am I
right? Does this happen often? What is the most common order? Is there a
way to guess what order a name is written in? Sometimes it's not easy
for non-Sinophones to know which part is the given name and which part
is the family name.

Thanks,
Simon

---

From: Arturo Servin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 11:03:49 -0300

> for non-Sinophones to know which part is the given name and which part
Same question.

It would be good to add something about this in the draft.

Again, great doc.

Cheers,
as

---

From: Ted Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 14:15:54 +0000

On Jul 11, 2013, at 8:14 AM, Hui Deng <[email-masked]> wrote:
> I personally feel that this is maybe one of not easier part for western people to do in today IETF.  and chinese's names sound maybe more diffcult than other eastern languages.

I think these documents are useful for IETFers who care, and possibly for others.   Pinyin transliteration is not safely pronounceable without help.   It's true that many European languages are hard for speakers of other languages to pronounce also, and I would not personally object to more helpful documents of this type for other languages.   I think that what would motivate this would be author interest—that's what we usually let drive volunteer translations of IETF messages into other languages, for example.   E.g., there are numerous translations for the Tao; these are done on a volunteer basis, so if you don't see one for your language, and this bothers you, the onus is on you to solve it.

---

From: Sam Hartman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 10:15:35 -0400

Hi.
As I mentioned in  private mail, I think these are really great
documents and will work on learning the advice contained in them.

I hope we will all strive to pronounce names of contributors and their
companies as they would wish us to pronounce them.

I was wondering if call-chinese-names could contain some advice on
mailing lists and IM discussions.
In this message should I say that  Hui Deng wrote a great draft, or Deng
Hui?

When reading the from line of a message what should I do to try and
figure out which name is the given name or the family name?  The note
that family names are generally one character was very helpful in this regard.

---

From: Cyrus Daboo <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 10:22:15 -0400

Hi Simon,

> for non-Sinophones to know which part is the given name and which part

Well that actually brings up a good technical point!

In iCalendar (RFC5545) we have properties to represent the organizer and 
attendee of meetings. A parameter (attribute) of those properties is "CN" - 
defined to be the "common name" of the corresponding calendar user. 
Obviously that is a single string and typically the concatenation of first 
name/last name. But that of course is a very "Western" approach.

I have had several people request that iCalendar instead define new 
parameters for "FIRST-NAME" and "LAST-NAME". That then gives clients the 
option of re-ordering those for display purposes based on user locales and 
preferences.

So, from a technical standpoint, it seems better to always represent user 
names using components (last, first, middle)? vCard does have an "N" 
property where individual components of a name can be broken out.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

---

From: Simon Perreault <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 16:28:05 +0200

Le 2013-07-11 16:22, Cyrus Daboo a écrit :
> So, from a technical standpoint, it seems better to always represent
> user names using components (last, first, middle)? vCard does have an
> "N" property where individual components of a name can be broken out.

I'm nowhere near an expert on this topic, but I distinctly remember
during the vCard 4 effort some participants saying that some cultures
just don't separate names into parts. In those cultures, you would just
have *a name*. Like an opaque, atomic blob I guess.

Simon

---

From: Stephen Farrell <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 15:33:25 +0100

On 07/11/2013 03:22 PM, Cyrus Daboo wrote:
> attendee of meetings. A parameter (attribute) of those properties is
> "CN" - defined to be the "common name" of the corresponding calendar
> user. Obviously that is a single string and typically the concatenation
> of first name/last name. But that of course is a very "Western" approach.
> 
> option of re-ordering those for display purposes based on user locales
> and preferences.

I guess that's inherited from X.500 via ldap. But CN is just one X.500
name attribute and there were others for firstname, lastname etc. (So
it wasn't at all a 'western' approach, at least if you go by mid-1980's
standards;-) Anyway, no harm adding those to iCalendar or whatever, but
be good to try be compatible(ish) with ldap and the ever-creaky X.500;-)

There's some stuff in rfc5280 related to that but I'd have to go
looking to see what'd be the best thing to which to refer.

I'd expect the scim WG to also have (maybe) other options that you
could build from too. Not sure of details there.

S.

---

From: Cyrus Daboo <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 10:34:33 -0400

Hi Simon,

> have *a name*. Like an opaque, atomic blob I guess.

True. And in the iCalendar world attendees can also be non-human entities 
like rooms or resources, which typically do not have separate components 
for their names (e.g., "Conference Room 1", "HD Projector", etc). But that 
case can be handled by simply specifying the full name in the "LAST-NAME" 
field and leave the others blank.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

---

From: Ted Lemon <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 14:38:23 +0000

On Jul 11, 2013, at 9:58 AM, Simon Perreault <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Is there a

It's usually in the Chinese order in the email address.

---

From: Stephen Sprunk <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 10:23:20 -0500

On 11-Jul-13 08:58, Simon Perreault wrote:
> orders. That is, sometimes "Hui Deng" will be written "Deng Hui". Am
> I right? Does this happen often? What is the most common order? Is
> there a way to guess what order a name is written in? Sometimes it's
> not easy for non-Sinophones to know which part is the given name and
> which part is the family name.

It is more common for the given name to come first when written in
Pinyin, following the rule for other languages written in Latin
characters, but exceptions are frequent enough that one can't rely on
it.  A useful and growing convention is to write the family name in all
caps.  Using the above example, if "Deng" were the family name, you
might see:

Hui DENG
or
DENG Hui

whereas if "Hui" were the family name, you might see:

Deng HUI
or
HUI Deng

Also, most family names have a single syllable; all of the top 100 are,
which accounts for 85% of the population of China.  So, if exactly one
of the names has multiple syllables, it is reasonably safe to assume
that is the given name, absent a more definitive clue.

S

-- 
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

---

From: Donald Eastlake <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 11:40:26 -0400

First/Last = bad/ambiguous

Family (or maybe inherited) / Given = good

Thanks,
Donald
=============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 155 Beaver Street, Milford, MA 01757 USA
 [email-masked]

---

From: Stephen Sprunk <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 10:50:03 -0500

>    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zcao-chinese-pronounce-00

While "first name" and "last name" may be useful for many Western
readers, they tend to produce confusing statements like "put his/her
Last name first, and first name last."  I would prefer the order-neutral
terms "given name" and "family name", which results in the more sensible
"put his/her family name first and given name last."

Also, the section on tones (which BTW belongs in the pronunciation
document, not the names document) is a good example of how allowing
UTF-8, rather than just US-ASCII, would be useful.  "Lao3ban3"
(Wade-Giles) requires memorizing what the various tone numbers mean,
whereas "Lǎobǎn" (Pinyin) provides a visual representation of the proper
tone, which will be more accessible to most readers.

S

---

From: Ted Hardie <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 10:01:34 -0700

Howdy,

Thanks for your efforts.  I would suggest, however, that you re-title your
drafts so that "Chinese" is restricted to the populations which use pinyin
and have standardized on what English speakers call Mandarin (國語
or 普通話, depending on your background).  Those who use  romanizations based
on other dialects, in line with their familial pronunciation, would
otherwise be treated as not "Chinese".

regards,

Ted Hardie

---

From: Melinda Shore <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 09:03:22 -0800

On 7/11/13 4:14 AM, Hui Deng wrote:
> people to do in today IETF.  and chinese's names sound maybe more
> diffcult than other eastern languages.

I know it is for me, and I'm grateful for the draft.  I agree
that this is probably not appropriate for publication as an RFC
but it would certainly be useful to find someplace for it in the
wiki.  The chairs wiki might be an option but I think it's of
broader interest and use.

Melinda

---

From: "George, Wes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 14:29:35 -0400

> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
> Melinda Shore

> I agree

[WEG] I think writing language documentation isn't really a good use of IETF resources, even at an individual level, because neither the problem nor the knowledge necessary to address it is specific to the IETF, nor is the problem limited to Mandarin participants. As others have noted, this is just one of many languages represented by IETFers that we'd have to treat similarly.
Further, an I-D is not a particularly useful format in which to present the info. Raw text in the form of "$phoneme as in $English_word" may not always be helpful, especially to nonnative English speakers who now have to work through two layers of pronunciation.  Being able to click on a button to hear sample pronunciations, especially in the case of words where tones matter, is very helpful.

So if pronunciation guides end up in the Wiki or the Tao or some other yet to be written Diversity and Cultural guide hosted within IETF, I think it's more useful to simply reference things already extant instead of generating our own. Those representing the language in question could certainly help us to source and vet the information, but that's much quicker and more efficient than writing it themselves.
Protocol reuse, hurray! :-)
e.g.
http://mandarin.about.com/od/pronunciation/a/How-To-Pronounce-Mandarin-Chinese.htm
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Japanese/Pronunciation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology

To be clear, I'm not saying that this doesn't expose a real problem, and the draft certainly drew attention to it, but I also don't think that more documentation will solve it, especially since the information is already readily available in more accessible formats. I think what you'll find is that there are two types of folks (in IETF and generally) - those who see an attempt at proper pronunciation and cultural awareness as important and worth making extra effort to learn proactively, and those who believe that if it's an issue, the person on the receiving end will correct them when they get it wrong (and hopefully not repeat the mistake).
Not making a value judgment on either, merely an observation.

Thanks
Wes George

PS: guess which one is my given name and which my surname? Even native English speakers aren't immune from name confusion. :-)

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From: Joseph Yee <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 15:49:58 -0400

+1

And should remove middle-name / middle-initial.  It's very bad.

Joseph

On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 11:40 AM, Donald Eastlake <[email-masked]> wrote:

> "CN" -
> and

---

From: "Cao,Zhen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 09:35:05 +0800

> Very cool! Thanks for writing this!

Our pleasure.

> for non-Sinophones to know which part is the given name and which part

I notice most names in IETF are still presented in the English order,
given name first and family name later.

For names written with Family name first, usually it is encouraged to
put a ',' between.

Thanks,
zhen

---

From: "Cao,Zhen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 09:47:05 +0800

Yes, agree, we will change that accordingly.
Thanks.

---

From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 18:21:37 -1000

> given name first and family name later.

same issue with japanese names.  there seems to be a convention of
capitalizing the family name

randy

---

From: Aaron Yi DING <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 11:18:41 +0100

> capitalizing the family name

Indeed a good practice. Capitalizing the family name avoids the 
confusion of oder.

Aaron

---

From: Margaret Wasserman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 17:48:41 -0400

Cyrus, 

Even the notion of "First Name" and "Last Name" is specific to a certain group of cultures.  "Family Name" and "Given Name" don't always go in the same order, and it is not always the case that people are called by their given name in informal situations, as you can see in the drafts on Chinese Names.  In some cultures, people have more than one surname, and in others, people may only have one name.

Here is a nice article, for instance, on how/why people in Spanish cultures have two last names.  There are a lot of subtleties here, like which one to use in formal address, and how to address a family where both parents have two last names…:

http://perez.cs.vt.edu/twolastnames

In my opinion, it would be better to ask for what you actually want, rather than trying to infer what to do from other fields.  For instance, you could ask for "Full Name" and "Display Name" or "Badge Name". Or "Full Name" and "Informal Name", if what you want is to know how to address them informally.  Or, "Full Name" and "Short Name", if what you are looking for is something shorter than the full name for use in a UI.

Margaret

On Jul 11, 2013, at 10:34 AM, Cyrus Daboo <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Hi Simon,
> 
> --On July 11, 2013 at 4:28:05 PM +0200 Simon Perreault <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> True. And in the iCalendar world attendees can also be non-human entities like rooms or resources, which typically do not have separate components for their names (e.g., "Conference Room 1", "HD Projector", etc). But that case can be handled by simply specifying the full name in the "LAST-NAME" field and leave the others blank.
> 
> -- 
> Cyrus Daboo
>

---

From: Eric Burger <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 20:06:32 -0400

I kept my maiden name, too. Another Western option, hyphenation, was not for us. Who wants to be a Spear-Burger? Unless you want a Pepsi and chips with that. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympia_Cafe

---

From: Warren Kumari <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 14:48:10 -0400

On Jul 12, 2013, at 8:06 PM, Eric Burger <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I kept my maiden name, too.

And I took my wife's last name when we married. 
This caused no end of confusion at the marriage office, with their Borland C "Turbo Vision" Text menu system app, with a space for a "maiden" name for the female to change her name, but not the male…

W

> Another Western option, hyphenation, was not for us. Who wants to be a Spear-Burger? Unless you want a Pepsi and chips with that. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympia_Cafe
> 

--
Consider orang-utans.
In all the worlds graced by their presence, it is suspected that they can talk but choose not to do so in case humans put them to work, possibly in the television industry. In fact they can talk. It's just that they talk in Orang-utan. Humans are only capable of listening in Bewilderment.
-- Terry Practhett

---

From: Hui Deng <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 07:31:47 +0800

Hi Arturo,

diffcult for us, english speaking people other than western,
Section 4 has been moved.

thanks for your comments,

-Hui

2013/7/11 Arturo Servin <[email-masked]>

---

From: Hui Deng <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 07:32:56 +0800

will mention this and candidate ways in the next version.
thanks,

-Hui

2013/7/11 Simon Perreault <[email-masked]>

---

From: Hui Deng <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 07:35:32 +0800

revised to "for english speaking people who care"
thanks

-Hui

2013/7/11 Ted Lemon <[email-masked]>

> I think these documents are useful for IETFers who care, and possibly for
> others.   Pinyin transliteration is not safely pronounceable without help.
>   It's true that many European languages are hard for speakers of other
> languages to pronounce also, and I would not personally object to more
> helpful documents of this type for other languages.   I think that what
> would motivate this would be author interest—that's what we usually let
> drive volunteer translations of IETF messages into other languages, for
> example.   E.g., there are numerous translations for the Tao; these are
> done on a volunteer basis, so if you don't see one for your language, and
> this bothers you, the onus is on you to solve it.
>
>
>

---

From: Hui Deng <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 07:41:33 +0800

Right, it seems most email addresses are the correct order as far as my
email

[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]

-Hui

---

From: Hui Deng <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 07:56:16 +0800

Hi Stephen,

all caps should be included, thanks for your pointint out.

for your 85% is one syllable, I guess that normally has two characters for
family name, then they will have two syllables?

thanks,

-Hui

2013/7/11 Stephen Sprunk <[email-masked]>

> It is more common for the given name to come first when written in Pinyin,
> following the rule for other languages written in Latin characters, but
> exceptions are frequent enough that one can't rely on it.  A useful and
> growing convention is to write the family name in all caps.  Using the
> above example, if "Deng" were the family name, you might see:
>
> Hui DENG
> or
> DENG Hui
>
> which accounts for 85% of the population of China.  So, if exactly one of
> the names has multiple syllables, it is reasonably safe to assume that is
> the given name, absent a more definitive clue.
>
> S
>
> --

---

From: Hui Deng <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 08:18:19 +0800

I guess XML draft doesn't support "Lǎobǎn"
thanks for your remindness.

-Hui

> While "first name" and "last name" may be useful for many Western readers,
> they tend to produce confusing statements like "put his/her Last name
> first, and first name last."  I would prefer the order-neutral terms "given
> name" and "family name", which results in the more sensible "put his/her
> family name first and given name last."
>
> document, not the names document) is a good example of how allowing UTF-8,
> rather than just US-ASCII, would be useful.  "Lao3ban3" (Wade-Giles)
> requires memorizing what the various tone numbers mean, whereas "Lǎobǎn"
> (Pinyin) provides a visual representation of the proper tone, which will be
> more accessible to most readers.
>
>
> S
>
> --

---

From: Hui Deng <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 08:26:07 +0800

Hi Ted,

I did explain them in the 1st paragraph about minorities (not mentioned
that they could have two kids in mainland)
anyway, I will revise the title by adding "Chinese "Han" people", hope that
will be ok

-Hui

2013/7/11 Ted Hardie <[email-masked]>

---

From: Hui Deng <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 08:35:37 +0800

I guess that George is your given name. Wes is your family name. Hope I am
not wrong.:)

-Hui

2013/7/11 George, Wes <[email-masked]>

> [WEG] I think writing language documentation isn't really a good use of
> IETF resources, even at an individual level, because neither the problem
> nor the knowledge necessary to address it is specific to the IETF, nor is
> the problem limited to Mandarin participants. As others have noted, this is
> just one of many languages represented by IETFers that we'd have to treat
> similarly.
> Further, an I-D is not a particularly useful format in which to present
> the info. Raw text in the form of "$phoneme as in $English_word" may not
> always be helpful, especially to nonnative English speakers who now have to
> work through two layers of pronunciation.  Being able to click on a button
> to hear sample pronunciations, especially in the case of words where tones
> matter, is very helpful.
>
> So if pronunciation guides end up in the Wiki or the Tao or some other yet
> to be written Diversity and Cultural guide hosted within IETF, I think it's
> more useful to simply reference things already extant instead of generating
> our own. Those representing the language in question could certainly help
> us to source and vet the information, but that's much quicker and more
> efficient than writing it themselves.
> To be clear, I'm not saying that this doesn't expose a real problem, and
> the draft certainly drew attention to it, but I also don't think that more
> documentation will solve it, especially since the information is already
> readily available in more accessible formats. I think what you'll find is
> that there are two types of folks (in IETF and generally) - those who see
> an attempt at proper pronunciation and cultural awareness as important and
> worth making extra effort to learn proactively, and those who believe that
> if it's an issue, the person on the receiving end will correct them when
> they get it wrong (and hopefully not repeat the mistake).
> PS: guess which one is my given name and which my surname? Even native
> English speakers aren't immune from name confusion. :-)
>
>
> This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable
> proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to
> copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely
> for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you
> are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that
> any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to
> the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and
> may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify
> the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of
> this E-mail and any printout.
>

---

From: Ted Hardie <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 09:04:49 -0700

On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Hui Deng <[email-masked]> wrote:

> anyway, I will revise the title by adding "Chinese "Han" people", hope
> that will be ok
>
> -Hui
>
>
>
While it is always valuable to note national minorities, I believe you
missed the point.  In some territories, there are dialects of Chinese other
than Mandarin and romanizations
other than pinyin which are common and normatively correct.  For those
Chinese people, your document does not apply.  As an example, the current
chief executive of Hong Kong is properly called Leung Chun Ying (梁振英); his
predecessor  in that role was Tung Chee Hwa (董建華).   Similar situations
arise in Taiwan and in many territories where Chinese people are themselves
national minorities.

Clarifying that your document is specific to the pinyin romanization is
likely enough (since that romanization is based on Mandarin).

best regards,

Ted Hardie

>> Thanks for your efforts.  I would suggest, however, that you re-title
>> your drafts so that "Chinese" is restricted to the populations which use
>> pinyin and have standardized on what English speakers call Mandarin (國語
>> or 普通話, depending on your background).  Those who use  romanizations
>> based on other dialects, in line with their familial pronunciation, would

---

From: "Cao,Zhen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 16:35:15 +0800

> arise in Taiwan and in many territories where Chinese people are themselves

That's not Pinyin system. I have a question for you, do you think
these spellings are self pronounciable?

> likely enough (since that romanization is based on Mandarin).

We actually clarify that in pinyin draft,
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-zcao-chinese-pronounce-01

Thanks,
caozhen

---

From: Joseph Yee <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 11:09:08 -0400

> these spellings are self pronounciable?

You mean how accurate they sound?  They sound right for the intended
dialect, just they are not Mandarin.

Joseph

---

From: "Cao,Zhen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 18:27:07 +0800

> dialect, just they are not Mandarin.

No, I am curious how the translation system maps the sound (i know
it's Cantonese) to English letters.

Pinyin is not self pronounceable . Because by reading the letters,
English speakers do not know how to pronounce.

---

From: "Leaf Yeh" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 15:04:40 +0800

Hui,

I bet you are wrong this time. :-)

George, Wes should be Mr. Wesley GEORGE of Time Warner Cable. 

Best Regards,
Leaf

From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Hui
Deng
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 8:36 AM
To: George, Wes
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Regarding call Chinese names

-Hui

> broader interest and use.
[WEG] I think writing language documentation isn't really a good use of IETF
resources, even at an individual level, because neither the problem nor the
knowledge necessary to address it is specific to the IETF, nor is the
problem limited to Mandarin participants. As others have noted, this is just
one of many languages represented by IETFers that we'd have to treat
similarly.
Further, an I-D is not a particularly useful format in which to present the
info. Raw text in the form of "$phoneme as in $English_word" may not always
be helpful, especially to nonnative English speakers who now have to work
through two layers of pronunciation.  Being able to click on a button to
hear sample pronunciations, especially in the case of words where tones
matter, is very helpful.

So if pronunciation guides end up in the Wiki or the Tao or some other yet
to be written Diversity and Cultural guide hosted within IETF, I think it's
more useful to simply reference things already extant instead of generating
our own. Those representing the language in question could certainly help us
to source and vet the information, but that's much quicker and more
efficient than writing it themselves.
Protocol reuse, hurray! :-)
e.g.
http://mandarin.about.com/od/pronunciation/a/How-To-Pronounce-Mandarin-Chine
se.htm
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Japanese/Pronunciation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology

To be clear, I'm not saying that this doesn't expose a real problem, and the
draft certainly drew attention to it, but I also don't think that more
documentation will solve it, especially since the information is already
readily available in more accessible formats. I think what you'll find is
that there are two types of folks (in IETF and generally) - those who see an
attempt at proper pronunciation and cultural awareness as important and
worth making extra effort to learn proactively, and those who believe that
if it's an issue, the person on the receiving end will correct them when
they get it wrong (and hopefully not repeat the mistake).
Not making a value judgment on either, merely an observation.

Thanks
Wes George

Anything below this line has been added by my company's mail server, I have
no control over it.
-----------------

This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to
copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for
the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not
the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the
contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the
sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this
E-mail and any printout.

---

From: "Leaf Yeh" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 15:57:48 +0800

Simon - I have a question: I think I've seen Chinese names written in both
orders. That is, sometimes "Hui Deng" will be written "Deng Hui". Am I
right? Does this happen often? What is the most common order?

To me, as a native Chinese, "Hui Deng" is written in English, while "Deng
Hui" is written in Pinyin (Chinese phonetic alphabet) .

Best Regards,
Leaf

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
Simon Perreault
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 9:58 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Regarding call Chinese names

I have a question: I think I've seen Chinese names written in both orders.
That is, sometimes "Hui Deng" will be written "Deng Hui". Am I right? Does
this happen often? What is the most common order? Is there a way to guess
what order a name is written in? Sometimes it's not easy for non-Sinophones
to know which part is the given name and which part is the family name.

Thanks,
Simon

---

From: "Leaf Yeh" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 15:58:17 +0800

a. I suppose Mr. Leung and Mr. Tung used Wade-Giles Romanization (or system)
for their name's spelling, which looks very popular outside China mainland
including Hong Kong, and inside China mainland before the year of 1958 when
Pinyin (Chinese phonetic alphabet) was published. 

b. I believe Taiwanese has adopted Pinyin system for Chinese Character now,
but they used Wade-Giles system before.

c. Pinyin has been employed on the passport of China Mainland, but I don't
think they are friendly enough for people speaking English to pronounce. To
me, some Pinyin of Chinese character are just for spelling in English, and
are not feasible for the correct pronunciation.

d. Pinyin uses roman (or roughly English) characters to denote the sounds of
Chinese Character, but in the Chinese style, which always causes confusion
in pronunciation. Though the beginning lessons on Chinese language in the
preliminary school is on the Pinyin (or Phonetic alphabet of Chinese
Character), but the foreigner seldom gets chance to learn it. :-(

Best Regards,
Leaf

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of Cao,
Zhen
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 4:35 PM
To: Ted Hardie
Cc: IETF Discussion
Subject: Re: Regarding call Chinese names

On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Ted Hardie <[email-masked]> wrote:
>> I did explain them in the 1st paragraph about minorities (not 
>> mentioned that they could have two kids in mainland) anyway, I will 
>> revise the title by adding "Chinese "Han" people", hope that will be 
>> ok
>>
>> -Hui
>>
>>
>
> missed the point.  In some territories, there are dialects of Chinese 
> other than Mandarin and romanizations other than pinyin which are 
> common and normatively correct.  For those Chinese people, your 
> document does not apply.  As an example, the current chief executive 
> of Hong Kong is properly called Leung Chun Ying (梁振英); his
> arise in Taiwan and in many territories where Chinese people are 
> themselves national minorities.

That's not Pinyin system. I have a question for you, do you think these
spellings are self pronounciable?

>
> Clarifying that your document is specific to the pinyin romanization 
> is likely enough (since that romanization is based on Mandarin).

Thanks,
caozhen

---

From: Ted Hardie <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 10:50:57 -0700

> Pinyin (Chinese phonetic alphabet) was published.
Wade-Giles is a romanization system for Mandarin, not Cantonese.  The Yale
romanization for Cantonese developed by Parker Po-fei Huang and the
jyutping  (粵拼) are more likely sources for Cantonese names which use a
codified romanization system (jyutping being more recent).  Many names use
folk romanizations, rather than following a specific system.

regards,

Ted Hardie

---

From: "Leaf Yeh" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 16:53:40 +0800

I have not learned  Yale romanization for Cantonese and jyutping (you mentioned) before. The following are my homework of today for you: -)

a.       Per the Wikipidia @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yale_Romanization 

Mandarin Yale was developed in 1943 by the Yale sinologist  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_A._Kennedy_(sinologist)> George Kennedy to help prepare American soldiers to communicate with their Chinese allies on the battlefield. Rather than try to teach recruits to interpret the standard romanization of the time, the  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade%E2%80%93Giles> Wade–Giles system, a new system was invented that utilized the decoding skills that recruits would already know from having learned to read English, i.e. it used English spelling conventions to represent Chinese sounds.

…

Unlike the Mandarin Yale romanization, Cantonese Yale is still widely used in books and dictionaries for  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Cantonese> Cantonese, especially for foreign learners.  Developed by  <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Parker_Po-fei_Huang&action=edit&redlink=1> Parker Po-fei Huang and  <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gerald_P._Kok&action=edit&redlink=1> Gerald P. Kok and published in 1970,…

…, Yale romanization is usually held to be easy for  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English> American English speakers to pronounce without much training. In  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong> Hong Kong, more people use  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonese_Pinyin> Cantonese Pinyin and  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyutping> Jyutping, as these systems are more localized to Hong Kong people. Foreign students of Cantonese who attend Hong Kong University use Sidney Lau's spelling of Cantonese from his three-volume textbooks. Foreign students of Cantonese who attend Chinese University of Hong Kong's New-Asia Yale-in-China Chinese Language Center are taught to use the Yale spelling of Cantonese and eventually learn to read those traditional English voiced consonants in a new unvoiced Cantonese way subconsciously, without realizing they are doing so or without usually being aware of the linguistic difference.

b.       Per the Wikipidia @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonese_Pinyin 

Cantonese Pinyin ( <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_characters> Chinese: 常用字廣州話讀音表:拼音方案, also known as 教院式拼音方案) is a  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization> romanization system for  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Cantonese> Cantonese developed by Yu Bingzhao (余秉昭) in 1971, and subsequently modified by the Education Department (merged into the  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_and_Manpower_Bureau> Education and Manpower Bureau since 2003) of Hong Kong and  <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zhan_Bohui&action=edit&redlink=1> Zhan Bohui (詹伯慧). It was used by Tongyin zihui (同音字彙), Cantonese Pronunciation list of Chinese Characters in Common Use (常用字廣州話讀音表), Dictionary of Standard Cantonese Pronunciation (廣州話正音字典), and List of Chinese Characters in Common Use for Primary education (小學中文科常用字表). It is the only romanization system accepted by  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_and_Manpower_Bureau> Education and Manpower Bureau of Hong Kong and  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Examinations_and_Assessment_Authority> Hong Kong Examinations and Assessment Authority.

c.       Per the Wikipidia @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyutping 

Jyutping （Jyutping： <http://www.forvo.com/download/mp3/%E7%B2%A4%E6%8B%BC/yue/2248626> jyut6 ping3）(Cantonese pronunciation:  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Cantonese> [jyːt̚˨ pʰɪŋ˧]), sometimes spelled Jyutpin) is a  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization> romanization system for  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Cantonese> Cantonesedeveloped by the  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_Society_of_Hong_Kong> Linguistic Society of Hong Kong (LSHK) in 1993. Its formal name is The Linguistic Society of Hong Kong Cantonese Romanization Scheme. The LSHK promotes the use of this romanization system.

Mr. Leung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leung_Chun_Ying ) and Mr. Tung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tung_Chee_Hwa) were born before 1970,  so I believe they had no chance to adopt Yale romanization for Cantonese and jyutping for their name’s spelling. 

Best Regards,

Leaf

From: Ted Hardie [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 1:51 AM
To: Leaf Yeh
Cc: Cao,Zhen; IETF Discussion
Subject: Re: Regarding call Chinese names

Wade-Giles is a romanization system for Mandarin, not Cantonese.  The Yale romanization for Cantonese developed by Parker Po-fei Huang and the jyutping  (粵拼) are more likely sources for Cantonese names which use a codified romanization system (jyutping being more recent).  Many names use folk romanizations, rather than following a specific system.

regards,

Ted Hardie