Subject: Re: DNSEXT Minutes @ IETF-63 [Software Patent issues denied discussion] (fwd)

From: Dean Anderson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 16:09:32 -0400 (EDT)

Before we are too distracted by personal attacks on me**, could we please
consider the issues contained in the forwarded message.  I think the first
thing should be to direct the DNSEXT WG Chairs to stimulate discussion of
IPR issues rather than ask it to stop, and for them to get IPR disclosure
statement(s) on draft-ietf-dnsext-ecc-key-07.

[**Please ignore the personal attacks on me for the moment. I will get
around to posting formal complaints on a violation of the IETF and ISOC
Codes of Conduct, as I have in other cases.  No doubt, for the short term
at least, these complaints will get the same action as Alvestrand's and
Vixie's namecalling of me, the abuse of Dr. Bernstein, the abuse of Nick
Strand, and the abuse of others too numerous to list. Though the abusers
in these cases are much easier to enumerate. Someday we will have to
address the issues of professional honesty and professional ethics and
such. In the meantime, we document it.  As with defamation, this abuse
eventually results in more harm to the abuser than to the abused. Time is
on our side.]

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:21:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dean Anderson <[email-masked]>
To: Olaf M. Kolkman <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked], [email-masked]
Subject: Re: DNSEXT Minutes @ IETF-63 [Software Patent issues denied
    discussion]

[CC'd to the main IETF list]

[Note:  Not very long ago, I argued persuasively to a large and broad
movement within the IETF seeking to have the IETF adopt an anti-patent
position. I took my position pragmatically on the basis that the IETF
should consider patented technology intelligently on a case-by-case basis
in order to ensure participation by pro-patent groups and organizations
whose cooperation is necessary and beneficial to the IETF. This is a
pragmatic and reasonable view;  The IETF interests in patented technology
are different from my ideological interests in abolishing software
patents, even if those interests have broad support. Interoperable
standards are more important than ideology.  Placing interoperation ahead
of ideological interests, I saw the value in having participation and
cooperation on standards regardless of ideological differences.  However,
having persuaded people to take a pragmatic and cooperative view,
pro-patent persons shouldn't try to exploit that cooperation by attempting
to prevent or suppress consideration of IPR issues by working groups.]

The statement of the WG chair (included below) is not consistent with the
IETF rules on IPR disclosure and consideration.

For your reference: RFC 3979:

6.1.1.  A Contributor's IPR in his or her Contribution

   Any Contributor who reasonably and personally knows of IPR meeting
   the conditions of Section 6.6 which the Contributor believes Covers
   or may ultimately Cover his or her Contribution, or which the
   Contributor reasonably and personally knows his or her employer or
   sponsor may assert against Implementing Technologies based on such
   Contribution, must make a disclosure in accordance with this Section
   6.

   This requirement specifically includes Contributions that are made by
   any means including electronic or spoken comments, unless the latter
   are rejected from consideration before a disclosure could reasonably
   be submitted.  An IPR discloser is requested to withdraw a previous
   disclosure if a revised Contribution negates the previous IPR
   disclosure, or to amend a previous disclosure if a revised
   Contribution substantially alters the previous disclosure.

   Contributors must disclose IPR meeting the description in this
   section; there are no exceptions to this rule.

The fact that a discussion may be legal in nature is of no relevance. We
live in a professional world bounded by legal constraints. The working
group must ensure that IETF requirements on IPR disclosure are met, and
that IPR encumbrances are properly and fully considered by the working
group participants in the selection of technology.  Patent encumbrance is
a valid basis for comparison of any proposal. And IPR encumbrance is in
fact not limited mere comparison, but even whether to adopt a given
technology at all; Rejection because of IPR encumbrance is a valid option 
to be decided on a case-by-case basis.

I do not see that the WG Chair is allowed by IETF policy to exclude or
suppress information or discussion about IPR encumbrance, which seems to
be the purpose of suppressing this discussion. This is contrary to IETF
policy, which is to have each WG intelligently consider IPR issues.

Also, the WG chair makes mention of two documents. In fact, there are 3
documents noted in the minutes which seem to have IPR encumbrances:

Two are reported in the minutes under the heading of "IPR Issues update".  
These two have IPR statements, but the IPR encumbrances have not been 
discussed or considered on list.

draft-ietf-dnsext-trustupdate-timers-00 and
draft-ietf-dnsext-trustupdate-threshold-00

However, the IPR section of the minutes has an ominous quote about these
two:

  "There is a license available that is royalty free, but does have some
   terms. So implementors either don't know what to do or are ignoring 
   it."

Clearly, more discussion should be stimulated. It should also be
worthwhile for the WG to search for and consider alternatives that aren't
patent encumbered. This issue should be discussed, not ignored or
suppressed as a "rat-hole". This "rat-hole" nonsense is just a cover for a
submarine, pro-patent attempt to avoid discussion of the IPR issues in
these documents, and perhaps avoiding the possibility of a patent-free
alternative.

But I am also concerned about a third document that is also mentioned in
the minutes.

draft-ietf-dnsext-ecc-key-07

This document does not have an IPR disclosure on the IETF IPR page.

The minutes state: 

  First something about draft-ietf-dnsext-ecc-key-07: There have been some
  questions in the past about patents, but as far as is known, these only
  cover specific implementations, not on the basic theory or scheme of it,
  perhaps on specific equations.

As the President of the League for Programming Freedom, and a leader on
the topics of Patent, Copyright, and Trademark law, I do not find this
explanation of non-infringement to be credible.  An IPR disclosure should
be made on this document. According to RFC 3979, Section 6.1.1 "there are
no exceptions to this rule".  Further, the IETF is not to take any
position on the validity of an IPR claim. The IETF can't ignore the claim
as being invalid--that would be taking a position on its validity.  The
claim has to be documented and disclosed, even if it may not be valid.

And also, the working group chairs should be directed to _encourage_
discussion and consideration of the IPR issues, not try to suppress the
discussion.

Note RFC 3979 Section 6.2:
6.2.  The Timing of Providing Disclosure

   Timely IPR disclosure is important because working groups need to
   have as much information as they can while they are evaluating
   alternative solutions.

If the WG chairs are working to suppress IPR information and discussion,
it is not available for evaluation, in violation of the purpose of section
6.2.

Dean Anderson
President of the League for Programming Freedom.

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Olaf M. Kolkman wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> "Rat Hole Alert" [*]
> 
> Please stop this discussion.
> 
> For this working group the only relevance at this point is rough  
> consensus on the technical specification and running code. We have  
> neither at this point in time.
> 
> Lets get back to the technical task at hand. Compare the two proposals.
> 
> - --Olaf
> 
> 
> [*] http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2005/ 
> msg00381.html
> 
> > We want to issue is a "rat hole" alert:
> > Working groups tend to discuss the validity of patent claims, the
> > licensing terms and such at great lengths. In the end patent issues
> > are not technical but legal issues. It is up to the implementors of
> > technology under IPR to deal with these issues, not the working group.
> > If the IPR prohibits implementation than the WG would like to know,
> > from implementors. As rough consensus without running code does not  
> > make sense.
> >
> > Or to paraphrase the above: we all have an opinion on IPR, this
> > is not the list to rehash those.
> 
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