Subject: IETF is *NOT* the internet community

From: Bob Allisat <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:28:59 -0400 (EDT)

There is a unique and highly delusory belief among the devotees
 of the IETF that they somehow either are or stand in place of
 something they call the "Internet Community". When I cast my eyes
 out to the modern Internet not only could any such idea be further
 from the truth it is derisivel and decisively fraudulant. Perhaps
 ten years ago the IETF claim of hegemony over the Internet due
 to it's representativeness had validity. Today there is no shred
 of reality in the assertion.

 Hundreds of millions of normal, non-mensaianic citizens make up 
 the internet community. Which is more and more resembling the real
 time communities of the globe with each passing day. The IETF does
 not either reflect or represent the people of the world. And all
 the denials, list filtering and pompous wind from the likes of Baker
 and Alvestrand can change that. The IEFT is NOT the internet
 community. Not since 1989. And even that is suspect since at that
 time the Internet was basically a tool of the US defense industry
 to co-ordinate academic planning for weapons creation. Any way
 you look at it the IETF is illegitimate and highly unrepresentative.

 I would like to echo Rahmat M.Samik-Ibrahim's statement that ...
 "There is a need for a publicly recorded feedback mechanism for
 the Internet Standard Process." I would also like to go further
 and add that a control mechanism is even more critical than mere
 feedback and oversight. We have to wrestle CONTROL out of the hands
 of the technicians and place it in the trust of elected citizens.
 Who are highly more likely to act in the general good of the public 
 than this small band of corporate financed technocrats. In fact much
 of the technological foot dragging and slowing of change and net
 evolution vcan be directly traced to the IETF and it's reluctance
 and inability to deal with recent Internet developments. A situation
 that is not only highly explosive but alos extremely unsatisfactory.

 The sooner we depose the IETF and all other false monopolies from
 their positions of sole authority and unquestioned power the sooner
 the medium begins responding to real, grassroots needs. Not merely
 aping the requirements of the few corporations the IETF boys are all
 principles or major share holders in. Basically the message is this:
 fuck the IETF if it continues to fuck us. It's just that simple.

 Bob Allisat

 Free Community Network ... [email-masked] __ http://fcn.net

---

From: Rodent of Unusual Size <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 08:06:40 -0400

Bob Allisat wrote:
>  something they call the "Internet Community".

Actually, it seems to be more a unique and delusory belief
of yours that there is such a belief.  Speak for yourself;
don't put words on others' keyboards.

>                          We have to wrestle CONTROL out of the hands

Ah.  First, 'throw the old scoundrels out and put the new
scoundrels in.'  Then vote for more panem et circenses.  Bravo.
History appears eager to repeat itself again..

>  than this small band of corporate financed technocrats.

Possibly, but who are also more likely to act in their own
interests first at the *expense* of the general good.  Go
review the social and political dynamics of special-interest
representation.

>  the medium begins responding to real, grassroots needs.

Possibly, but with no certainty.  And don't forget the obligatory
period of chaos implicit in the agenda you outline above.  Which,
BTW, seems based on a false premise; everyone is free to
design/deploy/use other mechanisms than those developed by the IETF
process.  No-one is *forcing* anyone to use the DNS root servers;
feel free to set up your own, et cetera.  But don't be surprised
if not everyone wants to play in your sandbox.
-- 
#ken  P-)}

Ken Coar                    <http://Web.Golux.Com/coar/>
Apache Software Foundation  <http://www.apache.org/>
"Apache Server for Dummies" <http://Web.Golux.Com/coar/ASFD/>

---

From: Rodent of Unusual Size <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 08:06:40 -0400

---

From: "Michael H. Warfield" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:03:55 -0400 (EDT)

Hmmm....   He's baaaccckkk...

Bob Allisat enscribed thusly:

	[...]

>  community. Not since 1989. And even that is suspect since at that

	Never heard them claim to be...

>  Who are highly more likely to act in the general good of the public 

	Oh that's too funny!  "trust of elected citizens"?  Are you
referring to our eminantly trustworth elected government.  The same
on that Ben Franklin referred to by the line "No man's liberties are
safe while congress is in session"?  The same government that is struggling
to block to deployment of strong cryptography so that the FBI and the IRS
can maintain effective ability to peek into your affairs?  "act in the
general good of the public"?  You must be on drugs...

>  that is not only highly explosive but alos extremely unsatisfactory.

	Huh...  This is begining to sound like Alice In Wonderland.  Are
you trying to convince us that Congress can move fast and respond to
technology better than the IETF?  The government is still playing with
stone knive and bear skins.  Surely you're not referring to that bastion
of high tech responsiveness, the FCC are you?  Ha ha ha ha!!!  So much
for "elected officials"!  Can you say "bureaucracy".  When has a
"bureaucracy" ever been able to outspeed a "small band of corporate
financed technocrats".  You're begining to sound like a Ludite.  Look at
how far behind the technocurve the FAA is or the rest of the government.
You want THEM to lead the techno charge into the future.

	Must be GOOD DRUGS!

	Remember too, the Internet started out to be a governement funded
project.  Seems to be that everybody was bitching about that.  Then they
handed it over to private operation, and everybody was bitching about that.
Now your bitching about it being run by "technocrats" (who else is better
qualified to make technological decisions - some clerk in congress?).

	Elected officials are not going to be techno savy and are not likely
to "act in the general good of the public".  They and the petty little
bureaucracies they depended on are going to act for their own good first
and formost.  The primary goal of any organization (and that includes the
IETF, but also includes corporations, governments, committees, and
bureaucracies) is to insure it's continued survival.  Elected officials
are not likely to act in the best interest of the public unless the
public is there and ready to defend their own interest and hold said
official's feet to the fire.  Ain't gonna happen.  Just look at the entire
cryptography debate.  Ain't gonna happen.  Just look at the entire privacy
debate.  Ain't gonna happen.  What chance does our privacy have in the
face of assaults on it by both the elected officials and big business.
Put it in the hands of "elected officials" and we'll all soon have mandatory
"door bells" in our routers for the FBI and IRS and forget about that
encryption.  Just hand your keys over to the government.  They'll protect
you privacy.  Trust them.  They're acting in the in the general good of the
public.  What a farce.

>  fuck the IETF if it continues to fuck us. It's just that simple.

	Oh this is just to ludicrous to believe.  You really have jumped
off the deep end this time....

	Thanks for a good belly laugh.  I really didn't expect it at this
hour of the morning.

	ROTFLMAOC

>  Free Community Network ... [email-masked] __ http://fcn.net

	Sorry to everyone else for contributing to the degradation of the
signal to noise ratio.

	Mike
-- 
 Michael H. Warfield    |  (770) 985-6132   |  [email-masked]
  (The Mad Wizard)      |  (770) 925-8248   |  http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
  NIC whois:  MHW9      |  An optimist believes we live in the best of all
 PGP Key: 0xDF1DD471    |  possible worlds.  A pessimist is sure of it!

---

From: "Michael H. Warfield" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:03:55 -0400 (EDT)

[...]

	Must be GOOD DRUGS!

	ROTFLMAOC

	Mike

---

From: "Jim Harlow" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 06:33:21 -0700

I'm new to IETF message distribution.  Is this indicative of the level of
dialog I can expect in the IETF?  My Inbox has been filled with this sort of
dialog since I signed on -- and frankly, Ladies and Gentlemen, this sort of
pedantic diatribe is not what I expected.  I'd understood this forum is for
technical exploration and information exchange rather than chat-room quality
meandering.  Have I misunderstood the IETF charter?  Is this reflective of
the day-to-day activities of the IETF?

Regards,

Jim Harlow

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael H. Warfield [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 6:04 AM
To: Bob Allisat
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: IETF is *NOT* the internet community

	[...]

	Must be GOOD DRUGS!

	ROTFLMAOC

	Mike

---

From: "Jim Harlow" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 06:33:21 -0700

Regards,

Jim Harlow

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael H. Warfield [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 6:04 AM
To: Bob Allisat
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: IETF is *NOT* the internet community

	[...]

	Must be GOOD DRUGS!

	ROTFLMAOC

	Mike

---

From: "Nils-Åke Nordström" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:37:39 +0200

Hello world !

I you wonder:

1. How to charge end-user and network services offered by a IP-network?
2. How to manage thousands of users and customer in an IP based service
network?
3. How to perform efficient OaM in a IP based service network?
4. How to implement AAA in an IP based service network?

..then you're not alone. But, better up I've got an information model
supporting these problem areas. At least some basic stuff building up a
framework of a more detailed information model. Interested?. Send me an
e-mail and I will reply with a .ppt presentation. Please, send me your
option about the information model and give me your frank option about the
usefulness of such a model.

Best regards from Nils-Åke

---

From: "Nils-Åke Nordström" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:37:39 +0200

Hello world !

I you wonder:

---

From: "Constantine Protopapas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:31:35 +0300

This reminds me of an argument i had once in the Cybermind mailing list;
people there thought us network engineers as an "junta"; my answer was (and
is); without us the Internet would still be running on 1200bps phone lines.
But.. Allisat is back..oh well..

Constantine Protopapas
Systems/Network Engineer
e-mail:	[email-masked]
Tel:		++301-6801391
mobile:		++3097-598043

---	"...Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to
suffering..."
	STOP THE KILLING IN YUGOSLAVIA!!

> From: Bob Allisat [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 2:29 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: IETF is *NOT* the internet community
>
>
>

---

From: "Constantine Protopapas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:31:35 +0300

Constantine Protopapas
Systems/Network Engineer

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:46:56 -0700

At 11:31 PM 6/2/99 +0300, Constantine Protopapas wrote:
>Allisat is back...

very briefly.

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:46:56 -0700

very briefly.

---

From: "Constantine Protopapas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 04:27:25 +0300

You know this guy is an argument against the freedom of speech :)..PLEASE
stop him, so we can discuss more serious matters.

Constantine

> From: Fred Baker [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 11:47 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: RE: IETF is *NOT* the internet community
>
>

---

From: "Constantine Protopapas" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 04:27:25 +0300

Constantine

---

From: "mark.paton" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:10:07 +0100

Constantine,
I think you have missed the point.  Us network
engineers have only created a framework for the
Internet.  We do not as far as I know have not
invaded the world of the Internet as dictators.
The IETF governs standards and not who, when where
and why.

Please try to remember that and then we won't be
guilty of the very thing that Bob Allisat is
charging us with.

Regards
Mark Paton CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng
Mercury Network Systems Limited
http://www.mnsl.org

"Mercury Network Systems - The Unstoppable Force"

-----Original Message-----
From: Constantine Protopapas
[mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: 02 June 1999 21:32
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: IETF is *NOT* the internet community
Importance: High

This reminds me of an argument i had once
in the Cybermind mailing list;
people there thought us network engineers
as an "junta"; my answer was (and
is); without us the Internet would still
be running on 1200bps phone lines.
But.. Allisat is back..oh well..

Constantine Protopapas
Systems/Network Engineer

---	"...Fear leads to anger, anger
leads to hate, hate leads to
suffering..."
	STOP THE KILLING IN YUGOSLAVIA!!

>  you look at it the IETF is
illegitimate and highly unrepresentative.
>  Free Community Network ... [email-masked]
__ http://fcn.net

-
This message was passed through
[email-masked], which
is a sublist of [email-masked]. Not all
messages are passed.
Decisions on what to pass are made solely
by Harald Alvestrand.

---

From: "mark.paton" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:10:07 +0100

Constantine,

Regards

-----Original Message-----

Constantine Protopapas
Systems/Network Engineer

-

---

From: "Ace Meataku Anvil" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:01:37 +0800

Hello all,

Been following this for some time now.
Heres my view in this issue :
the Internet Steering teams (IETF,IRTF, IANA, ISOC etc etc) so far has been
doing a good job.
ISOC is probably the only org where Internet Community issues should be
addressed to.
and for that matter , ISOC should be more active in addressing Internet
Communities issues
which can be subtantially a HUGE effort. (Someone once told me that the most
of the Internet Users
does not bother and care bout these issues, but my question is , have the
responsible parties done enough to promote awareness of such efforts if
any.)
Leave IETF out of these issues until a "global voice" of the Internet
community has been well defined.
There need to be an establishment of a strong identity of this "Internet
Community" with subtantial representations from all categories of users and
their support and awareness, before we even try to voice out such issues.

The following was my comment to Vint who drafted The Intenet is for everyone
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-isoc-internet-for-everyone-00.txt

>Dear Phan,
>
>thank you VERY much for a thoughtful note! You have
>raised some very good points.

>Vint

At 12:56 PM 5/24/99 +0800, you wrote:
>Vint Cerf,
>
>wrt your Internet Draft : The Internet is for Everyone
>I strongly support the message you are striving on.
>
>Here are my comments :
>
>Comments :
>-Internet Users are increasing by the day. Majority of the technical
>personnel are onto this Network but there are those users whose background
>are non-techincal. And these users may well be the most important factor to
>the future of Internet. How do we get them involve in the developments of
>Internet. Do we have sufficient topics of interest for these groups of
>users? Have we design and promote sufficient interest in getting them
>involved.
>
>-If the Internet Steering Committee loses it's influence on the
>developments of Internet, The governments of the world and the Businesses
>of the world will dictate the Internet.
>I trust most would agree with me on this. We just cant afford to lose
>control over this medium as sincerely speaking there aren't any other
>medium in this world that come close to being "Free" from Authorities.
>Recognising that there are needs of support from major Technology
>Businesses in the development of Internet,  there need to be a proper
>guidelines & policy in how these businesses are involved and levels of
>involvements. And addressing the Govt. needs and involvement is crucial as
>well. How powerful is our current Internet Steering Comittee in "policing"
>any govt's control over internet policies in their own country. And if this
>is done, wont we be criticised as being hypocrites for controlling and
>dictating Internet... And therefore, Worldwide Users Voting is so crucial
>to policy enforcements and without majority of the Internet Users
>involvements, how will this be recognised as being  valid.
>-Promoting Worldwide Internet Users participation is critical
>-Standards and method of Vote must be defined in order to get good and
>proper vote results.
>-Standards and method of Survey must be defined in order to get good and
>proper Statistics data.
>-Proper channel for any users to submit complaints on "Internet
>Dictatorship" of anykind and comments to Internet NonTechnical Issues.
>-Proper Investigation team attending to complaints.
>
>these are just some ideas... to work on...
>
>"Internet is for Everyone"  but dont you think that "Everyone is for
>Internet" would be more suitable?
>
>rgrds. Phan
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>A Member of ISOC (1338692)
>CyberName : Ace Meataku Anvil
>Business Development Manager
>New Technology and Innovation Sdn Bhd (104397-U)
>Core Technology - SI Unit
>Lot 27, Medan Setia Satu,
>Plaza Damansara,
>Bukit Damansara,
>50490 Kuala Lumpur,
>Malaysia.
>Tel : 603-254-8702/8742
>Fax : 603-252-3717
>Email : [email-masked]
>ICQ : 14579033
>
>NTI URL : http://nti.infomal.com.my/
>Informative Malaysia URL : http://www.infomal.com.my/
>iWebFax Free Faxing Service URL : http://biz.infomal.com.my/webfax
>
=================================================================
"INTERNET IS FOR EVERYONE!"
Join the Internet Society and help to make it so.
See you at INET'99, San Jose, CA, June 22-25,1999
http://www.isoc.org/inet99/

---

From: "Ace Meataku Anvil" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:01:37 +0800

Hello all,

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 02:29:35 -0400

> the day-to-day activities of the IETF?

Bob Allisat is well known as one of our not-most-favorite trolls.  I've
never quite figured out if he's truly deranged, or if he merely posts his
diatribes to get a rise out of us.  In any case, after each sighting,
there's usually at least a few replies to his posting.

About once a month or so, Harald Alvestrand posts an FAQ regarding a
filtered mirror of the IETF list.  I don't personally subscribe to it,
but I do personally filter the IETF list into different folders based
on criteria similar to Harald's (basically, there's an 'ietf' folder,
and an 'ietf-loons' folder, and I try to remember to only check the
latter when I'm not in a mood to send flame-grams).  I also try to
limit my responses mail that ends up in the latter folder to
clarifications and corrections of technical facts, and leave all the
political raving to others. I find this makes the IETF list quite
manageable and readable.

Another point is that much of the day-to-day technical discussion
happens in the various working group e-mail lists, which far outweigh
the main IETF list in terms of total volume.  The main IETF list, due
to its charter, will always tend towards being more of a diatribe
magnet - political discussion is less obviously out of charter on this
list than (for instance) the SMTP Extensions working group, where any
posting that isn't about an SMTP Extension is automatically off topic...

Something to remember is that the IETF membership is, by and large,
a self-selected group of people who are paid large sums of money
to converse with inanimate objects.  This has implications for
the the average civility under stress.  I wish I could properly
credit whoever said:

"The flame you received was relatively mild by IETF standards,
as it contained no aspersions regarding your parentage or
dietary preferences".

				Valdis Kletnieks
				Computer Systems Senior Engineer
				Virginia Tech

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 02:29:35 -0400

Valdis Kletnieks

---

From: "Ace Meataku Anvil" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:12:09 +0800

hello all,
Anyone knows of any RFCs that touches on Internet to Mobile Phone SMS
systems?
thx in advance.
Phan

Member of ISOC (1338692)
Member of PDNHA

---

From: "Ace Meataku Anvil" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:12:09 +0800

hello all,