Subject: Re: IETF is *NOT* the internet community

From: "鄭志文 (Chih-Wen Cheng)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:04:22 +0800

Hi to every volunteers to the IETF society. I somewhat agree with the
viewpoint of Scot. I am also very new to the IETF if according to the
official definition of IETF's charter. I just recently subscribed a few mail
lists and try to absorb what has been discussed already up to now and also
try to understand the "group actions and its behaviors". I do appreciate all
those who are so enthusiastic contributing to the technical development of
Internet. Just as Scot pointed out that the basis of the Internet and
Democratic Society as a whole, is the ability to speak your mind and hope
you are heard. I at this point so far don't see any one of this two
societies (IETF v.s. any democratic part) resemble truly to their original
spirit. Maybe this is because we are as human beings, we have deep feeling
to whoever we are "good friends" with or with the same interested group.

Yes, IEFT mail list is setup as a public forum the way as Internet itself.
But I do see folks only communicate to who they are acquainted with and not
responding to the new comers or outsiders. Just as the standard protocols to
behave, different machines should able to talk to each other. We as the
technician make the protocols somehow only willing to talk to a few "brand
names". This is what I believe Bob and Scot really meant. I would like to
ask the courtesy to accept new comers and to reply to the people who are new
to the group. Don't let them alone to embarrass them to leave the
discussion.

Chih-Wen

END OF THIS MESSAGE
------------------------------------------------------------
Chih-Wen Cheng
Broadband Network Systems Department  (K300)
Computer & Communication Research Laboratories  (CCL)
Industrial Technology Research Institute (ITRI)

Address: Bldg. 51,  K300/ CCL/ITRI, 195-11 Sec. 4, Chung Hsing Rd.
Chutung, Hsinchu, Taiwan 310, R.O.C.
E-Mail: [email-masked]

WEB:http://www.itri.org.tw/
------------------------------------------------------------

>I do not want to create another storm, or add force to the storm which
>people perceive is being created, but I would like to add some input.
>
>Some of us may not agree with Bob Allisat. We may think he is crazy, we may
>think that he is on drugs, and we may think that he has no grip on reality.
>This may or may not be true. I don't think any of the above is the case. I
>personally agree with many of the things that Bob has to say, although I am
>not quite as vociferous as you may know since you often do not see my name
>on many of the list's e-mails. I also do not use forceful language such as
>seen below in Bob's post.
>
>I will say one thing though. We all at sometime or another use explicatives
>when we are angry or hurt about something. Although Bob's perceptions, and
>actions do not seem to follow the same grain as many of the others here,
>each individual that has replied so far to Bob's posting has infact helped
>to prove his point.
>
>If the majority of this list believes that it has infact acted
appropriately
>and in the best interest of the masses, than I believe that you will also
>agree that what Bob has to say is worthwhile and valid. He is only asking
to
>be heard and is not necessarily asking that you agree with him. I myself
>would love to have to courage to speak as much of my mind, not necessarily
>on these issues, but in general. The basis of the Internet and Democratic
>Society as a whole, is the ability to speak your mind and hope you are
>heard. I do not believe Bob is trying to force his ideals upon anyone. I
>believe he is simply a concerned netizen. All of us on this list are
>concerned netizens by default, and some of our ideas do not follow the
grain
>of the others.
>
>In sum, so what if Bob is different from each of us. We are all different,
>if we weren't than there would not be such things as nations, and there
>would be no difference in the laws that exist between them, and there would
>be no discussions which lead to differences in ideas (please see all
related
>postings as examples). In my opinion, Bob is only asking that we as a whole
>be tolerant of what people have to say. Different opinions and ideas are
the
>root of growth and understanding. Understand the spirit of his postings and
>not dwell on the minutiae or choice of words.
>
>As a human being, and living being. I would ask the same courtesy.
>
>-Scot Mc Pherson
>-Application Engineer
>-Wave Wireless Networking
>-Div. of SPEEDCOM International
>-Phone: 941.358.9283
>-Fax: 941.355.0219
>-E-mail: [email-masked]
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bob Allisat [mailto:[email-masked]]
>Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 7:29 AM
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: IETF is *NOT* the internet community
>
>
>
> There is a unique and highly delusory belief among the devotees
> of the IETF that they somehow either are or stand in place of
> something they call the "Internet Community". When I cast my eyes
> out to the modern Internet not only could any such idea be further
> from the truth it is derisivel and decisively fraudulant. Perhaps
> ten years ago the IETF claim of hegemony over the Internet due
> to it's representativeness had validity. Today there is no shred
> of reality in the assertion.
>
> Hundreds of millions of normal, non-mensaianic citizens make up
> the internet community. Which is more and more resembling the real
> time communities of the globe with each passing day. The IETF does
> not either reflect or represent the people of the world. And all
> the denials, list filtering and pompous wind from the likes of Baker
> and Alvestrand can change that. The IEFT is NOT the internet
> community. Not since 1989. And even that is suspect since at that
> time the Internet was basically a tool of the US defense industry
> to co-ordinate academic planning for weapons creation. Any way
> you look at it the IETF is illegitimate and highly unrepresentative.
>
> I would like to echo Rahmat M.Samik-Ibrahim's statement that ...
> "There is a need for a publicly recorded feedback mechanism for
> the Internet Standard Process." I would also like to go further
> and add that a control mechanism is even more critical than mere
> feedback and oversight. We have to wrestle CONTROL out of the hands
> of the technicians and place it in the trust of elected citizens.
> Who are highly more likely to act in the general good of the public
> than this small band of corporate financed technocrats. In fact much
> of the technological foot dragging and slowing of change and net
> evolution vcan be directly traced to the IETF and it's reluctance
> and inability to deal with recent Internet developments. A situation
> that is not only highly explosive but alos extremely unsatisfactory.
>
> The sooner we depose the IETF and all other false monopolies from
> their positions of sole authority and unquestioned power the sooner
> the medium begins responding to real, grassroots needs. Not merely
> aping the requirements of the few corporations the IETF boys are all
> principles or major share holders in. Basically the message is this:
> fuck the IETF if it continues to fuck us. It's just that simple.
>

---

From: "Ted Wolf Jr" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:22:27 -0400

I think that many do no understand, or choose to ignore the fact, that we
can not force all Internet participants into any one community. There have
been and will always be many communities driven by differing interests,
beliefs, and locale.

The IETF serves as an example of a very specialized open community that
provides a place for those who wish to discuss, design, and build new
protocols and infrastructure. It in no way positions itself as the Internet
governance body. As has been pointed out even the proposed standards are
exactly that proposed. You are always free to use or ignore them.

It is my sincere hope that no one community will ever be able to dictate how
all the other many communities may exist and contribute to the future of the
Internet. Rather there should be the creation of thousands more communities
of  diverse interest's allowing for all to participate in their own way.

Collaboration between communities has served us well to date and should into
the future if we can resist those things that invariably come with success;
greed, politics, and the need for someone to be in charge.

	One participants view.

Ted Wolf Jr.
Sr. Information Strategist
iAtlas Corporation

http://www.iatlas.com

---

From: "Ted Wolf Jr" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:22:27 -0400

One participants view.

Ted Wolf Jr.

http://www.iatlas.com

---

From: "John W. Noerenberg" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:02:31 -0700

At 9:04 AM +0800 6/3/99, =?big5?B?vken06TlIChDaGloLVdlbiBDaGVuZyk=?= wrote:
>responding to the new comers or outsiders.

Often times people respond privately when they feel a comment is not 
useful to the broad audience.  It has always been my experience that 
any idea worthy of comment, regardless of source, receives a good and 
thorough airing.

The fact the IETF tolerates and accepts divergent points of view such 
as those offered by people like Bob Allisat is testimony to it's 
openmindedness.  However, you should be aware that Mr. Allisat has 
all too frequently indulged in personal invective and wildly 
illogical claims.  He has really pushed the limit to the point where 
people question IETF's policy.  This is unfortunate, and by far the 
worst effect of messages like his, imho.  Bear in mind that Bob is 
not the only example in IETF history, as much as he is in the mind of 
everyone currently.  The IETF, like the network it has collectively 
designed, is built to withstand such things.

best,
john noerenberg
[email-masked]
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------
   Anyone who breathes the spirit of American roots and values knows
   instinctively that censorship is the feeble response of an insecure,
   beleaguered society.
   -- Russell Sherman, "Piano Pieces", 1997
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: "John W. Noerenberg" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:02:31 -0700

best,
john noerenberg
[email-masked]

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 22:12:23 -0700

At 10:02 AM 6/3/99 -0700, John  W. Noerenberg wrote:
>you should be aware that Mr. Allisat has 
>illogical claims.

In this particular case, as he has in the past, he has brought up a
discussion which is totally irrelevant to the stated subject of the list,
which may be found at http://www.ietf.org/maillist.html. I have therefore
asked the Executive Director to filter his messages, this time for four weeks.

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 22:12:23 -0700